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WS

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-RM-
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Wahrheitseeker, could you please remind this "grenadier" fellow of the present RODOH thread, which he seems to have forgotten about?
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I no doubt will.

-RM-
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In what concerns the crap that "grenadier" writes about Kolas archaeological investigation at Belzec, please show him my article about Mattognos lies & bullshit regarding that same investigation.
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I will ask his opinion of your blog posts (for which I admittedly have not read sadly).

-RM-
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Ah, and please tell the poor soul that Im waiting for him here on RODOH to chat about Belzec and Kola or any other subject of his choosing. As you know, I am banned from the Cesspit, otherwise I would reply to the fellow there.
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I'm sure that if he would want to debate you mano y mano, "grenadier" knows where to come looking.

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Should grenadier mouth off about my blog on CODOH instead of addressing me directly, hell be a stinking coward and referred to as such when I dissect his mouthing here or on the blog.

WS

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Curiously, have you ever tried reposting upon the CODOH forum, Roberto? Perhaps under a new user-name?

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Im not fond of sock-puppet games but like people to know who they are talking to. If you think you can arrange my being un-banned on CODOH, feel free to give it a try.

WS

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-RM-
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I wonder what Wahrheitseeker thinks of these moderating practices
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They do not appear balanced, nor fair upon Mr. Harrison, but rather more favoring to Hannover.

While I think Mr. Harrison has been given a decent amount of leeway to argue his positions (such as on Sanning), some of his thoughts (Hannover as Moderator, revisionist material as "anti-semitic garbage") have crossed over the line for the powers that be at the CODOH forum.

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Mind that Hannovers forum proclaims open debate on the Holocaust. The only thing that should be over the line on an open debate forum are personal insults to fellow posters.

WS

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I disagree with the removal of entire posts of Mr. Harrison's staunchly, or even any sort of "touching up" on his posts.

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So you will refrain from posting there until such practices are abandoned?

In his post of Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:17 am on the Cesspit, a yelping coward who calls himself "grenadier" mouths off about me as follows:

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In fact, it would have been cheaper and easier to set up a Holzgas chamber than one equipped with a
Soviet/French tank/truck/submarine engine.
Holo fanatics such as Sobe and Roberto have tried to refute the Holzgas argument and failed miserably.
Their technical arguments are dumb and have no merit.
Here is one of the perls written at another forum by this "Sobe";

"And, of course, the Nazis would'nt want to have a murder weapon thatregularly leaks ultra-poisonous and highly
explosive/flammable gas."

This is no argument, since the Germans drove around in hundreds of thousands of poison gas vehicles
and if anything, fixed installations would be much safer.

The switch to gasoline also presents another problem; the victims of such a gassing scenario would be a
cherry-red/pink coloring which is present whenever COHb levels are at 30 percent or above, i.e., our scenario.
Problem is none of the AR camps witnesses mention that, they speak of blue, bluish, tinges of blue, pallor,
yellow, etc. They "noticed" such coloring right after the gassings so putrefaction is excluded.
They simply lied.

Internet hoaxters such as Roberto defended tooth and nail for years the dumb diesel story until a minor German
Holocaust historian came to their rescue, one Peter Witte. This guy combed testimony and found some who
mentioned gasoline engines. The most important are probably Fuchs and Bauer who were allegedly the "gas masters"
who did the set up at Sobibor.

It ain't nothig more than vague cherry-picked Hoaxster summations and even so they contain problems.

It must be remembered that the stories of gassings at the AR camps and Chelmno are not absurd only
on account of the alleged murder weapon but for many, many other reasons as well.
It is a theater of absurds from beginning to end.

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Lets dissect the crap that this @sshole wrote.

grenadier

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In fact, it would have been cheaper and easier to set up a Holzgas chamber than one equipped with a
Soviet/French tank/truck/submarine engine.
Holo fanatics such as Sobe and Roberto have tried to refute the Holzgas argument and failed miserably.
Their technical arguments are dumb and have no merit.
Here is one of the perls written at another forum by this "Sobe";

"And, of course, the Nazis would'nt want to have a murder weapon thatregularly leaks ultra-poisonous and highly
explosive/flammable gas."

This is no argument, since the Germans drove around in hundreds of thousands of poison gas vehicles
and if anything, fixed installations would be much safer.

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Actually the point that producer gas generators would be a high risk for the users comes from no less a "Revisionist" scion than Friedrich Paul Berg, who in a 1994 Usenet post quoted here wrote the following (emphases is mine):

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As an alternative which they were required, by law, to know was extremely deadly, the Germans had producer gas generators18 % to 35% CO--on hundreds of thousands of trucks. Those generators were extremely dangerous--everyone had to know that because gas leaks were not only toxic but also highly explosive! When the engines were shutoff, the generators would keep on generating until the internal fire could be extinguished. Can anyone really believe the Germans would have used Diesel exhaust as a source of CO, when they had 18% to 35% CO? These were essentially the same people who built the first jet and rocket-propelled fighter airplanes, the first ballistic missiles, who also invented the gasoline engine, Diesel engine and even the automobile. I can't really believe that Mullins can be that stupid--but, then again, perhaps he is? (Berg, Diesel A,B,C's)

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Unlike producer gas generators, gasoline engines were not prone to unpredictable leaks of highly explosive and highly toxic gas, entailing the risk that the operators might blow themselves up or gas themselves. Theres also no indication in Bergs writings that producer gas generators in fixed installations would be any safer than producer gas generators in vehicles. There may have been means to lower the risk of accidental poisoning or explosion due to CO gas leaks from these "extremely dangerous" generators when using them for gassing, but the only reason to go through that trouble would have been a distinct advantage in using producer gas generators over using gasoline engines.

What would that advantage have been?

Higher amounts of CO in the gas chambers? The CO contents of gasoline exhaust are lethal enough, no need for overkill.

Fuel economy, saving precious gasoline? Who thus argues overlooks the fact that withdrawing producer gas vehicles from military duty to homicidal gassing duty would have required their being replaced by other vehicles in military service, and if there were no producer gas vehicles available to immediately take their place vehicles with gasoline motors would have to be used to replace the producer gas vehicles made available to the extermination camps. It stands to reason that driving a truck for hours on end every day over lousy Russian roads consumes a lot more gasoline than a couple of homicidal gassing runs in Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka lasting half an hour each at most. So in the overall fuel balance the saving on gasoline would have been none, on the contrary: more gasoline would have been spent by sending producer gas vehicles from military duty to the AR camps and replacing them with gasoline vehicles.

Now, lets assume for the sake of argument that there had been a distinct advantage in using producer gas generators over using gasoline engines. Would this be an argument against the reliability of eyewitness testimonies describing gassing with engine exhaust at the AR camps, especially the testimonies of those who operated the engines or were otherwise familiar with them? In the clouded mind of a "Revisionist" true believer this might be so, but to a reasonable mind the method becoming apparent from the evidence would only mean that, for whatever reason, the Nazis applied the first method that came into their minds presumably due to the well-known fact that some people commit suicide by running a gasoline engine in a closed space and didnt bother with looking for a "better" method once they had found out that gassing with engine exhaust worked to their satisfaction. I dont see what would be implausible about this, except under a baseless postulate that mass murderers (or "German" mass murderers, if you wish) are known to have always used the killing method that was most advantageous under all aspects.

Back to our friend in the Cesspit:

grenadier

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The switch to gasoline also presents another problem; the victims of such a gassing scenario would be a
cherry-red/pink coloring which is present whenever COHb levels are at 30 percent or above, i.e., our scenario.
Problem is none of the AR camps witnesses mention that, they speak of blue, bluish, tinges of blue, pallor,
yellow, etc. They "noticed" such coloring right after the gassings so putrefaction is excluded.
They simply lied.

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Berg and friends stubbornly tried to sell this herring on the thread Fatal CO Gassing Victims would have appeared RED--NOT Blue a, without any success. One factor they didnt take into consideration is that the "cherry-red/pink coloring" is referred to in their sources as the color of livor mortis, which is visible about two hours or more after death i.e. not at the time when eyewitnesses to gassings at the AR camps got to see the victims (in his post of Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:09 pm, "grenadier" confirms this by quoting a Wikipedia source according to which it takes 4 to 5 hours for livor mortis to congeal in the capillaries and 6 to 12 hours for maximum lividity to develop). Another factor they failed to see is that a considerable part of the gassing victims may have died of suffocation (which tends to lead to a bluish discoloration of certain body parts known as cyanosis) rather than carbon monoxide poisoning, when the incoming exhaust displaced the already rarefied oxygen inside the gas chamber and the victims panicked on top of that, thus consuming so much of what little oxygen they had that they quickly ran out of it, faster than it took for a lethal concentration of CO to build up. Last but not least, the victims in the AR gas chambers, insofar as they died of carbon monoxide poisoning and not of asphyxia, need not have had in their blood the COHb levels of 30 percent or above that tend to produce this "cherry-red/pink coloring". As becomes apparent from several sources quoted in the above-mentioned thread, people suffering from anemia, and thus having a compromised ability of oxygenate, are likely to die of carbon monoxide poisoning without a COHb concentration leading to "cherry-red/pink coloring" having built up in their blood. Anemia, especially iron deficiency anemia, is a common consequence of malnutrition, and severely malnourished is what the Jews deported to the AR camps from Polish ghettos i.e. the overwhelming majority of the deportees to those camps certainly were. They were furthermore exhausted and hungry when they reached the extermination camp they were reported to, and they died in a state of physical exertion and extreme stress due to the panic that broke out in the gas chambers when the gas was introduced factors that further reduced the concentration of CO required to kill them. So, contrary to what Berg & Co. have tried and keep trying to make believe, there are several reasons why most gassing victims in the AR camps and certainly all of those observed by eyewitnesses in the initial phases of these camps operation, when transports came in exclusively from Polish ghettos need not have shown a "cherry-red/pink coloring" when observed by eyewitnesses.

What else has our friend got?

grenadier

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Internet hoaxters such as Roberto defended tooth and nail for years the dumb diesel story until a minor German
Holocaust historian came to their rescue, one Peter Witte.

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I dont know if this poor soul is lying himself or just parroting someone elses lie, but the fact is that what Peter Witte pointed out in his article that appeared on this page of the ARC site in 2005 that eyewitnesses who either operated the engines or were otherwise familiar with them spoke of gasoline and not of diesel engines I had already pointed out long before, in my post of 30 Jun 2003 16:53 on what is now the Axis History Forum. A more complete version of the list I posted back then can now be found on this Reference thread.

grenadier

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This guy combed testimony and found some who
mentioned gasoline engines. The most important are probably Fuchs and Bauer who were allegedly the "gas masters"
who did the set up at Sobibor.

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Actually Wittes pertinent argument, which is similar to mine, is that those witnesses who operated the engine or were otherwise familiar with it i.e. the witnesses who, unlike casual observers, could not have been mistaken about the type of engine clearly and without exception mentioned a gasoline engine and not a diesel engine. Witte writes the following (emphases are mine):

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Rudolf Reder, the only known survivor of the extermination camp Belzec, carried (according to his own statement made 1944 to the Special Commission for Investigation of German Crimes, first published in Krakow 1946) 4-5 cans of petrol (kanistry benzyny) every day to the motor room of the gas chambers. There the maszyna / motor pedzony benzyna (a motor, run by petrol) was located. His testimony was supported by the Polish electrician Kasimierz Czerniak, who helped to establishing the motor room in 1942; he described a petrol motor of approximately 200 or more PS, from which exhaust fumes were led away over ground pipes (18 Nov 1945). Confusion with a diesel engine is out of the question because diesel fuel is called olej napedowy in Polish.
The theory of a diesel motor in the Belzec gas chambers is based on the testimony of Kurt Gerstein (1945) who had (according to his own statement) not seen the motor but just heard it. Therefore the diesel motor became part (without further references) of the historiography of the death camp.

The case of Sobibor is even more indisputable. In this case even three former Gasmeister (Gasmasters / Erich Bauer, Erich Fuchs, and Franz Hdl), who must have really have known the facts, since they all killed with the same motor, confirmed in court that it was definitely a petrol motor. Bauer and Fuchs, having been professional motor mechanics, simply quarrelled during the trial about whether it was a Renault motor or a heavy Russian tank motor (probably a tank motor or a tractor motor) having at least 200 PS. They also disputed whether the method of ignition was a starter or an impact magnet, which diesel motors obviously do not have, being self-igniting (the famous Russian T 34 tank originally had a petrol motor, the diesel version was introduced later, and was rarer).
At all Aktion Reinhard camps diesel engines were used in motor rooms but they were much smaller (testified: 15 PS motors / 220 Volt / 20 Ampere) and were used as generators and for lighting purposes. Perhaps this may have been the source of confusion regarding the real use of the petrol motors.

For the extermination camp Chelmno and the gas vans there the same applies: unquestionably petrol motors.
Walter Burmeister, gas van driver at Chelmno, mentioned mid-heavy Renault lorries with an Otto-Motor. Camp chief Walter Piller described the killing process with gasses which were produced by petrol motors. Polish mechanics, who were personally ordered to repair a gas van, precisely described exactly the huge petrol motor and its consumption: The motor of this car uses 75 litres of petrol per 100 km, that is, twice the consumption of normal motors.

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"Grenadier" is either too dumb to understand this essential distinction (witnesses with no precise knowledge of the gassing engine sometimes spoke a diesel engine, but all witnesses with such precise knowledge spoke of a gasoline engine), or then hes trying to obfuscate it.

The rest of "grenadier"s babblings are just an idiots meaningless blah-blah-blah, which Ill contemptuously ignore.

And now, ladies & gentlemen, we see another frustrated @sshole opening his big mouth: "jnovitz" aka the sheep-shagger from New Zealand who used to entertain the RODOH board under various aliases including "Lurkerthe" and "Sophie" (now he apparently calls himself "Elspeth Cohen", see this thread) . In his post Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:22 pm, he lets fly as follows:

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Most of his arguments is simply repackaging pseudo-science nonsense from Roberto Muehlenkampf, for example the blue vs red fiasco for CO poisoning. Truely a case of the blind leading the blind.

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Calling me names and my arguments "pseudo-science nonsense" is easy. What is not so easy is to explain what is supposed to be wrong with my reasoning as to why the victims in the AR gas chambers need not have been "red" and why those of them coming from Polish ghettos are likelier to have shown a blue discoloration characteristic of asphyxiation than the "cherry-red" livor mortis held to be characteristic of carbon-monoxide poisoning (see my post # 9771 on this thread).

Unless he was around on this thread under yet another pseudonym, I dont remember this disgusting "jnovitz" specimen to have even given it a try.

For those who are interested in my chat with Wahrheitseeker, the same is continuing on the following threads:

The Walls of the Gas Chambers

Poison Gas Concentrations and Times Alleged by Eye-Witnesses